Updated Thursdays

Sunday, May 27, 2012

How can we be sure?

I got some great questions from a commenter, and I want to go through them one by one and answer each, but first I want to point something out; most of these questions can be boiled down into one: How can I be sure Carlos Coy is innocent before I give him my support?

My answer to that is, and always will have to be, you can’t.

No one will ever be able to prove, with 100% scientifically verifiable positivity, that he did not commit this crime.

At the beginning of the blog I hoped that there was some kind of ignored or hidden physical evidence that could answer the question definitively, but according to the DA’s office and Coy himself, there is none. Nothing that could prove him innocent, and nothing that could prove him guilty.

At some point, you’re going to have to make a judgment call; You’re going to have to weigh what you know about Carlos Coy the man against what you know about the Harris County justice system. It’s pretty obvious what conclusion I came to, but your decision rests with you and no one else.
I believe Coy is innocent, but I don’t argue his innocence. I argue the justice of his trial. The points I make could be made just as well by someone who believed that he was guilty, but who still wanted to see justice in the justice system. I believe that Harris County screwed up big time, in thousands of cases, over many years. Whatever you think about Carlos Coy, I don’t believe any reasonable person can say that I’m wrong.

Hey, Incandesio. I just got a few questions I hope get cleared up, first off I am a huge SPM fan and advicate for his innocense, but I still have some doubts concerning the case. First, is it possible that the court is holding back evidence and or important details about the case that the public is not aware of? It seems like all you show in this blog are documents expressing his innocence, but there has to be some that make him look guilty.

We know from the response of Baldwin Chin that, according to the DA’s office, “In Mr. Coy’s case, there is no physical evidence (like a sexual assault kit) upon which forensic analysis can presently be conducted that would establish Mr. Coy’s innocence.”

But of course there must have been details that made him seems guilty. I’m guessing they were

1) His presence in court (If he’s here, he must be guilty)

2) Testimony (From the girl, the mother, the grandmother, the social worker, the psychiatrist, the police, etc)

That’s why I highlight cases involving the CAC nurse who conducted hundreds of unacceptable interviews on children to make cases for the DA. I point out Officer Ruiz’s “relentless” nature, and cases in which police departments and prosecutors all over the state have lied, hidden evidence, and fought tooth and nail to convict innocent men; they illegally conceal evidence that would provide proof of innocence, they ignore witnesses that don’t support their case, and they encourage children and adults to lie to get convictions.

And when the judge said that theres one thing hes learned about sex offenders, its that their all liers, i really believe that statement is true. Sexual offenders will cover up what they have done not just sexually but in life with lies[…]

In my experience, you can’t divide people up into classes and say “THESE people always lie.” For instance, there’s a national organization dedicated to the legalization of fucking little boys. They have a website, they have membership cards. They don’t lie, they come right out and tell you what they want.

The lying baby-raper and the innocent man are going to say the same thing: I didn’t do it. If you want to believe he’s guilty because he says he’s innocent, go ahead. It’s a moronic argument, but there’s no law against willful stupidity.

 if you are basing your arguments with Carlos's word, i dont think its very strong. Hes already in prison, if he lies its not like his prosecutor will come and prove wrong his lies wrong on this blog, they could care less they already won.

If you read the blog, you’ll find that very few of my arguments are based on anything said by Carlos Coy. I use newspaper articles, court documents, and whatever else is relatively verifiable. I'd never come into contact with Coy until several months after I began writing about him. I started because the situation seemed wrong, obviously wrong, and neither Coy nor anyone connected with him made me see that.

The case the prosecutors made is the wall that keeps Coy imprisoned. If they did a good job then it will answer any argument I could make because they will have removed all reasonable doubt of his guilt. Unfortunately, we're not allowed to examine the case to see how it holds up. The government chooses to hide what the wall is built from.

The only thing Carlos has now is his friends, family, and fans, and the only way to keep all them is by lying about what he did.

This not a question; this is two assumptions (He’s guilty, and he’s lying) and a supposition (He’s lying to keep his fans), and can't be answered.

Also i want to know how strong the little girls testimony was, i think that the testimony is the biggest part of the case and i do believe that alone even without evidence can make someone guilty.

Testimony doesn’t ‘make someone guilty’…Committing the act makes them guilty. The way our justice system is set up, jurors are only supposed to convict if they have proof ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’…Meaning proof so compelling, so convincing, that they would use it to act on the most important of their own affairs.

If a nine year old girl told you “Bob scratched your car”, would you go kick Bob’s ass based on that?

What if there was actually no scratch anywhere on your car?

What if a policewoman who disliked Bob and was known to her peers as “The Relentless Tigress” locked herself into a room with this little girl for a few hours, unrecorded, before the accusation was made?

What if you find out that the expert witness, who swore that she had no reason to believe that Bob didn’t scratch your car(a testament to the girl's truthfulness & reliability) didn’t know the girl was taking medications for neurological problems, including possible hallucinations?

I could go on with the comparisons, but you see my point. Was the jury presented with evidence ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ that Carlos Coy committed this crime? Going off what’s available to me, I’d say no.

The difference between this scenario and the case, of course, is that when we think someone has hurt a child, our first instinct is to gut them like a fish. It’s almost impossible for someone, especially a parent, to make an emotionless decision when the well-being of a child is involved. A car doesn’t inspire people to that level of reactionary behavior. Well, most people. I love my car passionately.

I mean cmon shes a lil kid, no normal lil kid wud be able to tell of these sexual acts without it actually happening,

Assuming she didn’t see it on TV, it could have been anyone in her life, a relative, a friend of the family, a caregiver...I’m not saying it’s impossible she was abused, but the evidence currently available to me does not support the state’s case that Carlos Coy was her abuser.

I think if they are coached there testimony wudnt be that real and convincing.

You may think that if you like. If you read the blog, you’ll find examples of children who gave false testimony (the Tony Hall case comes to mind) that was enough to get a conviction, and later proved false. Children have convinced juries that they have been raped with knives, even though there was no physical evidence that it had occurred. If you’re young, you probably don’t remember the day-care sex abuse hysterias that swept the nation in the 80’s and 90’s. Here’s a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria
 Innocent people have been imprisoned on what seems to be absolutely ridiculous claims.

"When you once believed something that now strikes you as absurd, even unhinged, it can be almost impossible to summon that feeling of credulity again. Maybe that is why it is easier for most of us to forget, rather than to try and explain, the Satanic-abuse scare that gripped this country in the early 80s — the myth that Devil-worshipers had set up shop in our day-care centers, where their clever adepts were raping and sodomizing children, practicing ritual sacrifice, shedding their clothes, drinking blood and eating feces, all unnoticed by parents, neighbors and the authorities."

Do you have any quotes from court from the little girls testimony?

As it happens, I do. I just received the last of a 30-page answer from SPM dealing with the girl’s testimony and how it was shaped by prosecutors. It’ll be up in June.

Again I am a big SPM fan and I want to believe he is innocent, i did not write to argue about the case I really do want you to help me erase these doubts I have.

There is nothing wrong with talking about this case, asking questions, even arguing. How can we get sunlight on the roaches if we don't lift up the carpet?

I can present you with the facts I’ve found, and show you the connections I’ve made, but I can’t take away your doubts. At some point, you’re going to have to look at what you know about Carlos Coy, what you’ve learned about the justice system, and decide what you think.


ivan817 said...

"How can we be sure?" In MY opinion SPM is innocent. In MY opinion any so called fan who questions his Innocence is not a true fan. You always stick with your people no matter what the circumstances may be, you give them the benefit of the doubt. If a family member or friend was going through the same thing u wouldn't question him, u would stick with him (I hope). Listen to his music and interviews, read the words he writes, to me those are the words of a real man. But people believe what they want to believe. Free SPMEX! GOD BLESS!

Anonymous said...

Incandesio, you are absolutely amazing. I know I'm biased, but that was an excellent piece.

Anonymous said...

Good job going the extra mile break-in it down question by question

Essay J said...

SPM fans watch this video And share it with your ppl thnx

salvadorboy13 said...

Thank you for answering my questions, I guess what I was ultimatley asking if there was any evidence or information held back from the public that would 100% gaurantee Carlos is guilty. I do believe he was wrongfully convicted in this case, with what I know if I was in the jury I would find him not guilty. My gut instinct says he did not do this. its sad because everyone i talk to about this case say, oh well hes still in prison that means hes guilty.

Ivan: It doesn't matter who it is or how close they are to me, I can still question their innocence, I think that is a very immature to give every one close to you the benefit of the doubt. There is a difference between giving support and giving the benefit of the doubt. My uncle is in prison, and I know 100% that he is guilty, but I still support him, I love him, I beg people to give him a second chance, I believe he can change, hell id even lie for him in court, he has my 100% support, but just because he is my uncle does not mean that I need to believe he is innocent. You know what I mean? I love SPM's music, and he seems like a cool person, but i can still question his innocence, now im not saying I 100% know that hes guilty, but there still is a good chance that he is. Sometimes you have to take a stand on what you believe is right and not just say that everyone close to you is immune to doing bad stuff.

Incandesio said...

Essay J: Thanks for the link! I'll put it up again on Friday.

Salvadorboy13: I was glad to answer the questions, and I hope you'll keep thinking & asking. People need to talk about this case, the ins and outs, the little details that most people ignore. The only way to fix this is by understanding it.

I'm going to get to your second round of questions Thursday.

Incandesio said...

Dammit, I forgot; Thursday's post will be SPM's answer for May; the second round of your questions will be up sometime in June, though.

ivan817 said...

Salvadorboy!3: I now understand and respect where u are coming from but it's just MY opinion, we all operate in a different way. Personally I am a loyal person, maybe a bit too loyal and yes it can be a flaw. Let me try to explain something, I hope it makes sense. To me giving someone the benefit of the doubt is part of showing support.It is like saying you might be guilty but if u say u did not do it then I believe u.I do not consider it to be immature, like I said we are all different. If one of my boys was going through the same thing and he asks me, "Do u believe me?" I would say, "Hell yeah my nigga!" I would believe my boy is innocent until there is concrete evidence which states that he is guilty. Once i have received that evidence and still think he is innocent then u can say I'm blind. And thats how I feel about SPM's case.Where is the evidence? I will say this again it is my opinion but I understand where u are coming from. Bottom line, I am not a lawyer and in my heart i truly believe that SPM is innocent and I am gonna role with that. FREE SPMEX! GOD BLESS!

beanieman said...

Well put by all of you. I've heard people claim he's innocent just because he can get any girl he wants or because his lyrics are about being real. That is ignorant. You should also listen to your heart but don't let anything distract you from what it tells you. Not his music, his lifestyle or anything. Don't know if yal get that but i do. FREE SPM!!!

JOE M. said...

Real talk ivan817. @salvadorboy It is good to talk about things but don't let anyone change how you feel. For someone to think that Spm has to be guilty just because he is locked up is completely ignorant and they haven't done their research. Remember innocent people get locked up everyday. Free Los!!!!!!!

Meskinkid said...

He not guilty or innocent until PROVEN nd no concrete proof so till now he wrongfully convicted. But in my opinion he didnt do it. Now daz wat da hamster diddle

salvadorboy13 said...

Ivan: i gotchu homie but I only trust people who earn my trust. If my brother is known to lie to me, and he gets convicted for rape and everything points towards his guilt, I wouldnt believe him. I would lie for him and tell people hes innocent but deep down I wouldnt believe him. I dont know Carlos enough to make that decision so I go by the evidence which is given, and their is none. So that is why i believe he was wrongfully convicted. But unless yall know Carlos you cant make that strong of a statement and say hes innocent for sure.

Joe: You dont gotta tell me that, I already know its ignorant and it pisses me off people are too lazy to look at the facts, but they still read the BS newspapers and media. But you know you gotta look at both sides of shit, the side that says hes guilty and the side that says hes innocent. Neither is right or wrong, and they both have valid points. I try and pick and choose those valid points and make a conclusion, and I do believe he was wrongfully convicted in this case. But at the end of the day only Carlos knows what he did.

Anonymous said...

Thank u so much incandesio u da best in getting the free spm word out there keep it real 100% bt we need to spread the word out more I actually need your help in the homicide of my boyfriend in 2007 im in Atlanta ga dekalb was the county since 07 the cops never updated us the fam on anything he my bf was a minor he was 15 every time I called the gang dectective he wouldn't answer I just don't know how to go bout finding out the truth o how to get info on his case dekalb county does nt care about Hispanics in the area the made it seen it was another gang thing bt it wasn't please help sincerely troubles Atlanta Georgia

Essay J said...

Anytime Incandesio . I got more projects coming soon dedicated to SPM not jst dedication bt support And love from real fans who hold it down for Carlos Coy. Anyone who wants to be part of this new movement add me @ www.facebook.com/essayj #FREELOS

Anonymous said...

There's a word for people who think SPM is innocent..."wrong".

Anonymous said...

SPM is innocent!n!

Incandesio said...

Anon 1:06:

Care to back that up with anything substantive?

Joseph Graham said...

In order to convict you of a criminal charge, the prosecutor must prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a pretty lofty standard, and during any trial the defendant may present a defense in order to raise such a reasonable doubt. Most defenses break down into one of two categories: (1) I didn't do it or (2) I did it, but I shouldn't be held responsible.

1. I Didn't Do It
The most basic defense to any criminal charge is to simply prove that you didn't do it.

Innocent Until Proven Guilty

One of the hallmarks of the American legal system is the presumption that you are innocent until proven guilty. This isn't just an ideal, it's an actual legal presumption, which means the judge and jury must assume you're innocent until they are shown otherwise. This is why a defendant can "plead the fifth", remain silent, and not offer a shred of evidence to support his or her claim of innocence and still prevail. It is the prosecutor's job to prove a defendant is guilty, not a defendant's job to prove that he or she is innocent. So what does a prosecutor have to show?

Beyond a Reasonable Doubt

The prosecutor must demonstrate to the judge or jury that there is no reasonable doubt of your guilt. If any reasonable doubt can be shown, any at all, then the prosecutor has failed and you should be found innocent. Because this standard is so high, most defendants concentrate on raising some reasonable doubt to the prosecutor's allegations. That is the law so, which by the Harris county court performed a illegal detainment of Carlos coy, there was no evidence that could be proven in his case pointing towards him being guilty or innocent, so by law he can not be charged and indicted on the crime in which he can not be proven one way or the other.

Brittany Thomas said...

This man was wrongly convicted because of a scorned lover and if you truly look at all the FACTS and evidence you will see that he was convicted on hear say. This mother waited ten days to go to the police im sorry im a mother of three and if my child called me to pick her up from a sleep over because someone touched her I would have been driving from that house to the ER or Police station. Carlos has admitted to his wrong that he has done in his life but he shouldn't be doing time for something he didn't do! Im sorry but some people need to read everything before you write because saying hes in there for getting a 14 yr old pregnant isnt the truth. .. That may be part of it but again he has admitted to the fact that he slept with that girl (not knowing of her age) and he himself said he would do the ten yrs for his son ... I truly believe if enough of us come together we can stand by Carlos Coy and overturn this conviction how much longer should he pay for someone else's stupidity. ... I just wanna say our justice system failed miserably in this case and as a member of Harris county I am disgusted that there was no Hard evidence to support this conviction. Incandesio you have truly inspired me and my husband to become part of something bigger than ourselves and Carlos is lucky to have a fan like u. I will pray that this is one day the truth is revealed and this beautiful man will be released and be able to go home and hug his children the way most of us get to come home every night and do with ours.

Anonymous said...

IF he is innocent, please explain the other charges

"On September 25, 2001, Houston police arrested Coy on a charge of aggravated sexual assault of a child who was then nine years old, but he was released from county jail after posting bail.[7] The incident occurred on Labor Day weekend that year.[2] A Harris County, Texas jury indicted Coy on December 10, 2001 and added another charge over a 1993 incident when SPM allegedly impregnated a then-13-year-old girl, who later demanded child support payments from him.[8][9] Two more charges followed in March 2002 for sexual assault of two 14-year-old girls; Coy was held without bail.[10][11] Coy's trial began on May 8, 2002, when the nine-year-old girl's mother testified that the girl left a sleepover because of abuse.[12] The next day, the girl testified that Coy touched her inappropriately when she was sleeping.[13]

On May 18, 2002, a Houston jury convicted Coy of aggravated sexual assault of a child. He was sentenced to 45 years in prison on May 30 and ordered to pay a $10,000 fine.[2][14] SPM is incarcerated in the Allred Unit in Wichita Falls, Texas. Coy is eligible for parole in 2024. His projected release date is April 8, 2047, and his Texas Department of Criminal Justice number is 01110642.[15] He was previously incarcerated in the Powledge Unit near Palestine, Texas.[16] Coy maintains his innocence in this case and there are persistent messages from online posters calling for his release.[17][18]"


I'm a fan but fuck guys, try to be objective here...

Incandesio said...

Anon 9:18:

The other charges were never brought to trial; as far as I can tell they were never even indicted. The one charge that offered unassailable proof never made it into the courtroom. Why do you think that is?

You said, "I'm a fan but fuck guys, try to be objective here.."

Alright, let’s be objective for a minute. Houston lead the nation in exonerations last year, with a whopping 33 wrongful convictions overturned. Texas vs Coy was one of first big cases tried under District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal, who was eventually forced to resign because of corruption, racist emails, and an addiction to painkillers. As I mentioned in the post above, the first chair prosecutor later got into hot water in a different case for hiding evidence.

The Houston CAC, which was responsible for Jane Doe's care, was also Embroiled in a scandal around that time for collecting evidence for the police instead of objectively assessing children. The Houston judicial system is objectively fucked, and has been for decades. Josiah Sutton, Gilbert Amezquita, Ricardo Rachell, George Rodriguez…These are just a few names of exonerees from Houston. You can read their stories here on the blog, through the Innocence project, or on the National Registry of Exonerations.

In this context a case in which there was no physical evidence, an unreliable complainant, an outcry witness that can't remember whether or not her young daughter was exposed to porn, a substantial financial settlement at stake and a judge who allowed testimony to be refined and changed on the stand but outside the presence of the jury, I think even a minimally objective individual would want to look a little deeper into his conviction.

brownpride said...

Why cant they give him a detector test its that simple.